RELEASE DATE: June 10, 2021
Mt. Freelance Podcast - Episode 109
Arlo Rosner
Freelance Producer & Entrepreneur
In our ninth episode we sit down with cinematographer turned commercial producer Arlo Rosner who talks about how freelance allows him to create not just side projects, but entire side businesses like the restaurant Superiority Burger in New York City.
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32 Min
Episode Recap
In our ninth episode Aaron James and Andrew Dickson welcome freelance producer and entrepreneur Arlo Rosner to the Mt. Freelance podcast.
Arlo got his start in the creative world as a cinematographer, before becoming a producer and eventually running his own production company. He’s been instrumental in creating campaigns shot all over the world for almost any client you can think of.
But what got us excited about talking with Arlo is how he uses being freelance and the skills he’s learned as a producer to create not just side projects, but entire side businesses.
This includes helping to relaunch iconic Manhattan bar Max Fish, and creating the always vegetarian often Vegan restaurant Superiority Burger in New York City, which GQ Magazine named the best burger anywhere, meat or otherwise.
As Arlo explains, why go through the heartache and headache of being freelance unless it’s allowing you to do things you couldn’t if you were full-time. This week’s episode is a must-listen for anyone with a big idea they need a little inspiration for bringing into the world and also offers great advice for creating a team that works well together.
Arlo Rosner
Episode 109
Intro:
This podcast is brought to you by Digital One. Tell your story, connect with your audience and build your brand with an engaging podcast. Learn more at D-I-G-O-N-E dot com.
(singing)
Aaron James:
Oh that's a cool song. Is that the Mt. Freelance theme song, Andrew?
Andrew Dickson:
It sure is. I am Andrew Dickson. You are Aaron James. Aaron, why are we doing this podcast?
Aaron James:
That's a good question, because a lot of people said, "Don't do a podcast. There's lots of them out there." But we ignored them.
Andrew Dickson:
And we are hoping that our unique angle of bringing a experienced savvy creative freelancer in to our studio slash virtual studio and interviewing them about their experience will be illuminating for you, our freelance audience.
Aaron James:
Well, and also for us, because we're still freelancers. And one of the cool things is freelance kind of unlocks opportunities with time, and if you do it right money, to do things that you don't get paid for, like the Mt. Freelance podcast.
Andrew Dickson:
So Aaron, I'm looking here at the Mt. Freelance website, which I believe you designed and I wrote, and it says that Mt. Freelance is actually a course and a member community and taught by us. And we apparently we have over two decades combined freelance experience working for some of the biggest brands and agencies in the world. Is this true?
Aaron James:
I think that is true. I mean, if it's on the internet, it's true. And let's dig in.
Andrew Dickson:
Aaron you've worked with our next guest, correct?
Aaron James:
Yeah. Arlo Rosner is a commercial freelance producer and we actually never worked on a project together. He was always working down the hall at a production company down in Venice, California when I was there. And the cool thing about Arlo is he has all these other side businesses. And so what he's done is he's kind of used his primary freelance job to unlock all these other cool opportunities. And a lot of them are restaurants and import alcohol from Mexico business. It's just very fascinating to see a guy that has unlocked his potential and these ideas and actually executes on them.
Andrew Dickson:
We should give them a sash for just being such a savvy freelancer.
Aaron James:
Absolutely.
Andrew Dickson:
Arlo Rosner.
Aaron James:
So Arlo, how many pushups can you do?
Arlo Rosner:
I can do a lot fewer pushups than business ventures I'm currently involved in.
Aaron James:
Cool.
Arlo Rosner:
So, so like three.
Aaron James:
Oh man. Well pushups are easier than pull-ups. Zero.
Arlo Rosner:
When is this going to air? Because I'm planning on starting to do a lot of pushups soon.
Aaron James:
Are you going to get shredded?
Arlo Rosner:
That's part of my pandemic plan is to just get shredded.
Andrew Dickson:
You've had such a wild ride career. When someone just casually at a party is like, "What did you do for a living?" What do you tell him?
Arlo Rosner:
I usually ask them, "Where do you want me to start," because it's been a pretty long and winding road. But for the most part, I pay the bills as a filmmaker. I've started that career as a cinematographer, getting a film school degree, which very few of us end up actually getting. I was lucky enough to be a high school dropout that didn't go to college until he was 23. So I actually figured out that that's what I wanted to do before I went to school. So I started as a cinematographer and that led to directing and trying to open a small boutique production company which I ran with a partner of mine and still close friend for a number of years. And eventually landed in the production realm as a freelance line producer. And that has led to a number of opportunities outside of production, mostly because of the freedom that it gives you to pay the bills and then have, for better for worse, long periods of time where you have nothing to do.
Aaron James:
How do you get hired for a production job? Walk us through, and a lot of us probably know this, but I actually always find that everyone has a little bit different take. If you get a phone call, who's calling you, what are they asking you to do?
Arlo Rosner:
It's funny, a lot of people ask me that, what the process of what I do and how I do it is, and my spiel that I've gotten down pretty well is that I relate it to the Mission Impossible movies, where you're sitting on a bench and someone walks up to you and hands you an envelope and says, "This is your mission should you choose to accept it." You know what I mean? And you usually end up someone... Usually head of production or an executive producer or a marketing executive at a brand or company that you may be familiar with for one reason or the other, or have been referred to by a friend. They have something they want to make, and they have an amount of money they want to make it with and that's the mission, should I choose to accept it. So often it starts there.
Arlo Rosner:
And if you're lucky enough to actually talk it through and tell them you need more money, or you need the idea to be smaller, or you need something, that I think is a real joy. But often it's that cut and dry. This is your mission should you choose to accept it. And you accept it, and you have a creative product you need to deliver for a certain amount of money by a certain day, and you don't sleep till it's done.
Aaron James:
Most of the time. You're accepting the mission.
Arlo Rosner:
Most times.
Aaron James:
Tell us about some of the reasons or some of the things that would happen where you would just pass on it. And then what's that process look like?
Arlo Rosner:
Oftentimes I don't just pass. I think there's a conversation that can occur that through a number of questions, nearing and bordering interrogation, you can almost convince people that they shouldn't be asking you to do this or that they're not ready or that there's much more work to be done on their end before wasting their time and money on someone like me and the time and money of anyone else I would hire is worth it. And that usually leads to either, "We'll call you back," and the call never comes back. So I didn't really say no. I just kind of pointed out that they didn't really know what they were asking for yet, or they come back and they've ironed it out a little bit and then we get to go do it.
Andrew Dickson:
But this is potentially a dangerous question to ask, but as a producer, is it more satisfying to be given that perfect project with a great script and plenty of money and all the time in the world or the challenging projects where it's the half finished script with not enough money and no time? Where do you get more enjoyment from?
Arlo Rosner:
I don't think there's ever enough money and there's never enough time. I don't know where I came up with the phrase or learned it, but I always look at a project and it's usually the thing that I point to in that initial conversation, rather than saying no. And I call it the bitch of the bunch, pardon any impropriety there. But the bitch of the bunch is like, "What about this thing is going to make it as hard as every other thing I've ever done?" And it's, well, there's not enough money. So that's going to be the of the bunch here. Or we have eight days to get visas into a country that requires 30. That's a problem.
Arlo Rosner:
So there's always something. I don't think I've ever come across a project that's just like, "Oh, look. We have enough money, enough time. The place we're going to travel and go to is very easy to get to and they have very robust production support system. By the end of it, we're going to have a couple of days to take off and go to the beach and relax before we fly home and deliver two days early."
Arlo Rosner:
Never. So there's always something. Sometimes it's the director you have to work with, or it's the creative team that just doesn't really grasp what their creative director might be telling them to do and you have to navigate that, but I don't think there's ever one that just goes right. That's something that I think we all would love to see happen in our lives once, but it's pretty rare.
Aaron James:
I'm sure you've had that moment where you have one job kind of bleeding into the next job. And maybe can you talk about some of the things that you have learned about how to juggle jobs and how to transition from one job to the next?
Arlo Rosner:
Yeah, I think that juggling jobs is crazy because again, I know talking freelance and brand work in particular, each job comes with a different brand and if you're going to do it well, and you're going to commit to it, there's a language to a brand, right? There's a messaging. There's a years, often, that go into a brand story that you have to immediately translate. You have days to do what companies take years to accomplish, which is learn this mission. So the hardest thing is kind of balancing that identity on behalf of each client. Beyond that, I think it's the teams you work with to get you through that. If I have a solid production manager and I have a team that I can begin to strategize that transition and strategize that overlap, if you have the right team and can keep them working and keep them on your team, rather than them having to stray off and find someone else, then those transitions become easier and easier.
Andrew Dickson:
When you're building a team, do you have a... I mean, partly it's just who's available, right? But do you have a philosophy or something you're looking for when you're maybe auditioning someone or the question you ask a fellow producer when you've gotten a referral?
Arlo Rosner:
I think that there's not a real script to it, but it's about human connection. It's about a sense of humor. If you can get on the phone with me, at least, it's about a sense of humor. Another thing that a lot of people say is there's so many people that are good at what we do. We're all very un-unique, but who can you lock yourself in a room with for four weeks and not want to kill? You know? And I think the better you get at figuring that out quickly, the better your teams are going to be. You have to have a certain synergy when it comes to your personalities. And if you don't have that, then you're never really going to build a strong team. And I'm always proud when the people I've assembled go off and build their own teams. I've had a number of production managers that have... That production manager produces their own job and everybody moves up a rung with that person. That to me says that I built a good team there.
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Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
I'm not sure actually.
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
Oh my gosh. So it's like a magazine-
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
Do they grind it?
Andrew Dickson:
They don't because they don't want any flavor to be lost in the mail. If you enter MT Freelance at check out, you're going to get 50% off your first order.
Aaron James:
Oh my gosh. Could you bump that up to half off that first order?
Andrew Dickson:
I think I have the authority. Yes. Half off.
Aaron James:
Let's do it. MT. Freelance at checkout at stumptowncoffee.com.
[End Advertisement]
Aaron James:
One of the big challenges of freelance is we all navigate feelings of kind of security that... And I think there's people that are used to working full-time, freelance seems like a big shift. How do you navigate the uncertainty of freelance?
Arlo Rosner:
I don't know if you can ever learn to manage that. I think that the key to it is knowing that there's more to you than the job itself if you choose to be freelance and letting that drive why you do it that way. It can be your family. It can be roses in your garden. But there's got to be something else that's more important than going to work every day. And if not, then just go to work every day, right? Who needs the stress of wondering where the next job's going to come from and who needs the stress of itemizing every expense in your life to make sure that you can afford to pay your mortgage or your rent, because you have to do your own taxes?
Arlo Rosner:
Why not just get a paycheck with all the taxes taken out and know that same amount it's going to come every two weeks? To me, the only reason why not is there something more important that's driving you that makes that risk worth it. To me, I strive in this business as art world. I love building businesses. I love building things. I love watching that same team building, that same machine building. So I've done that a number of ways with a number of people over a number of years, but that freedom to do that is what makes it worth the risk and the stress of hoping that next job comes down the pipe.
Andrew Dickson:
You're not into personal projects, you're into side businesses or new businesses.
Arlo Rosner:
Personal project to me is like a new business. You know what I mean? I built a record shelf for my vinyl. Sure. I have side projects, but I really... I love big ideas. So it might also be that you're looking could also maybe just spend all that time in between jobs looking for your way out. Think if it as this endless Mobius strip of job, after job, after job. And if you don't have some sort of vision of getting yourself out of that loop, at least for me, the loop will drive you mad and you'll just end up kind of giving up and getting a job or dying. I don't know what you'll do, but I think you've got to have a big enough thing driving you that's aimed toward getting out of that loop.
Aaron James:
I think what freelance can do and Mt. Freelance is a testament to this where, because of a little bit more control you have over your time over your ability to make more in a shorter period of time, it unlocks these opportunities. This podcast wouldn't exist if we weren't able to unlock some of that, but you were telling me about Superiority Burger in the... Is it lower east side or upper east side?
Arlo Rosner:
No, East Village.
Aaron James:
I got it right. East Village. So tell us about the restaurants.
Arlo Rosner:
The restaurant, Superiority Burger, is all vegetarian, often vegan, fast casual restaurant. It's a brain child of a chef named Brooks Headley. And my brother is actually much more in the restaurant business than I. He was a founding member of a Roberta's pizza in Bushwick, Brooklyn that has become quite well-known. And I think Superiority Burger for him was a chance to take more of a grasp on the side of the restaurant industry that he wanted to be most a part of. And he worked with Brooks to build a team that could make a restaurant a reality. Brooks had kind of been doing pop-up restaurants and it was going swimmingly. He's a very accomplished chef. Together with Gabe, that's my brother, they put a team together that could build Brooks his own restaurant, basically. And I think that's a perfect testament to me being a producer and me having time, after time, after time having a problem to solve.
Arlo Rosner:
But it's kind of the exact same thing at the end of the day. It's kind of like making a much lower budget commercial every single day for the rest of your life. But I was involved because of that. My brother knows I'm a good producer. He knows I can solve those problems. He knew I could navigate that world in a way that maybe people that just worked in a kitchen might not, and my brother bridged the gap of those two worlds really well. And at the end of the day there, it was really very much everything I learned about being a producer that I could just apply objectively to a different business. You take any freelancer with more than 10 years of experience and they go to get an MBA or some sort of business degree, they'll go...
Arlo Rosner:
Well, I've been doing this... I've been the business for the last 10 years. I've been running my own P and L. I've been doing this. I've been having to permit myself. I've been having to make sure my business is in compliance with the state. I've had to insure myself often. I've had workers' compensation. Everything that kind of goes into this frantic, what am I doing with my life? I'm just a freelancer. You're actually running a business. Whether it's a restaurant or anything else, it's all those same basic principles. And I don't think enough people in our industry look at it that way. A lot of people look at freelancing as being on their way to somewhere when they're really... They choose to be already there and you can run a very good business with a very strong profit and loss statement and a pretty good profit margin, to be honest, when your overhead can be as low as you choose, because it's your own soul.
Andrew Dickson:
We love this because this is, of course, the big aha in the first couple of video courses of Mt. Freelance. You have to change your mindset. You're not just a gig worker. You're not just in between full-time jobs. You're running a business, whether that's for 20 years or two.
Aaron James:
I love what you're saying, because I think it triggers a lot of fresh thinking around what might be maybe broken or not optimized within the sequences of a basic business, which even without a business degree, we all pretty much know what the basics are. So that's really cool.
Arlo Rosner:
Yeah. I mean, I think optimize. You said optimize. That's a great way to put it. People need to optimize their skillsets and they need to also expand their capabilities and offerings. You don't have to, as a designer, as a producer, as anything, just be that if you can shift your mindset to, "I can do whatever it is you need. Tell me what it is." It doesn't always have to be you. And that's how your business can ebb and flow and expand. And you actually have a lot of freedom because there's still zero overhead. And just offering the services of those that you know can do them.
Andrew Dickson:
What makes your history so interesting is, is you think most people, when they become a cinematographer, that's the next until you retire or maybe there's just a second career in your sixties, but for you, what was that? Were you always entrepreneurial or was there sort of a shift that suddenly you went from being like, "Wait a minute, I can..." How do you go from a cinematographer, like to, "I can run a production company and start one."
Arlo Rosner:
I think I was always an entrepreneur and still am. I used to sell candy on this on school... Hold up. Let me preface this. I was also a child, but I used to sell candy on the school yard.
Aaron James:
You're like, dang lasted week.
Arlo Rosner:
This is less recently.
Aaron James:
So this COVID, all these schools closing, it's really hurting you.
Arlo Rosner:
Killing me. So I think that that spark has always been there. And so when it came to being a filmmaker, I think being a cinematographer as great as it was, and I hate that I stopped pre-red, pre-Arie mini, pre all this great tech. I was right at the end of that when it came to the tools I worked with. But I think what I saw on a film set was that I just wanted to know more about the whole picture. I wasn't satisfied with just the departmental aspect of being a cinematographer. There's just a certain chain of events that I think an entrepreneur thinks of in the terms of growth and where your mind takes you. That's the way my mind tends to wander.
Andrew Dickson:
So you are part of arguably two of the businesses hardest hit by the pandemic between film production and the restaurant business. So how have you kind of taken that same entrepreneurial what's next mindset, or is there something out there that's giving you hope or inspiration through this tough time.
Arlo Rosner:
It's tough to find what you would call hope and inspiration. I've got to credit my business partners with how they've handled the restaurant side of things, because I'm not like I'm in New York, helping to be frank. It's just a lot about communication and what they can manage to do with their vendors and with our landlords and things like that. Filmmaking was tough because I really, as much as I love it, I kind of wanted to take a step back because I didn't feel like, especially again with brand advertising, that maybe that it was quite worth it. So the notion of getting back quickly, wasn't some urgent thing for me. If I had to give a broad definition of being a freelance line producer, it's like, my job is to gather dozens of strangers in an undisclosed location from anywhere from 10 to 72 hours, and then allow them to disperse. It just felt like I wasn't going to do that. I didn't want to do that. And there was no brand or product that was worth doing that for.
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Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
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Aaron James:
One thing that you emailed me about a little while ago was something that you're working on, a liquor brand called Raicilla. And yeah, he sent me a little info on that and I was super intrigued. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Arlo Rosner:
Raicilla de Una is a newly arriving liquor into the country. My friends, Amber Sellers and Ethan Lavelle, partnered up and started a company called Raicilla imports. And they've got a collective of farmers down in Mexico that are cultivating and fermenting this liquor. Raicilla, I think from what I understand, is a lot more popular down in Mexico and it's just emerging in the states. Hopefully we'll start seeing it in the stores first here in Venice beach area and then outward from there. But that was, I think, another example of me being able to help them wrap their heads around that side of it. Once again, you have this great big idea. "We got this booze in Mexico and we're going to sell it in Venice beach and it's delicious." Right? It's enough, from what I can remember about it. It's very delicious. But there's this whole thing in between, import export, getting things across the border, taxes, transportation, everything, but when you start making commercials or you start making films, you've had to do that, all of it.
Arlo Rosner:
I have to go through international import export rigmarole just to bring cameras more than a certain value from here to Mexico. I've got to deal with import export. I've got to deal with customs just to bring an area mini to Mexico City. You've got to do a whole batch of stuff, let alone bringing a whole film crew, 20 visas through. So once again, it was just a matter of what I learned as a producer and a filmmaker that I could add a little bit to someone else's kind of goals and say, "Have you thought this through really?" Just talking with someone last night, who wants to, for the sake purely of the community, build a skate park in Northern India in Varanasi.
Arlo Rosner:
And we got to talk and really the bitch of the bunch there is securing that land. It's a great dream. You can build cheaply. Sure. The lands there, but do you really know? And then it becomes doing business in India, which is a whole different deal. And again, I think I've shot in India. So I know what it's like to have to do a deal in India. And so you can take a little bit of that experience and apply it to a new venture and depending on your willingness and bandwidth and everything else, do you want to make that a profitable endeavor for yourself? Are you just there to lend an ear and a hand to people that need it, that, that you believe in their idea? But I think to me, it all just comes back to being a good filmmaker because some of the things they make us do are just absurd and we've all seen TV commercials and we've all worked on creative where you're like, "I can't believe we're going to make this. This is absurd."
Arlo Rosner:
And you look through the camera lens or through video village, and you're looking at the monitor like, "40 foot golf cart with a bartender on it, what?" And then you throw it away and the commercial airs for six weeks, and that's the end of it. But when you hold onto what it took to build that and what it took to get it done, you can apply it to whatever you want to.
Andrew Dickson:
What I love about your perspective is even going back to you saying liquor is all about logistics. I think most creative people would say, "It's all about the taste and it's about the label. And it's about the brand we're building." And I think a lot of freelancers, especially on the creative side of things, they're just thinking about the work. And they're not thinking about treating their career as a business and sort of the logistics of what it takes to be a successful freelancer. So I'm just really digging on what you're sharing here.
Arlo Rosner:
Yeah. I think that's what's missing and a lot of people have it and they don't give themselves credit for it. And I notice it in certain sides of the industry. It's there much more so, in certain sides, it's just not. So many of my cameramen, friends, and camerawoman friends, they own their own gear and they rent it out to productions they're not on. And they have a side loan out company where they're renting their camera and it's working when they're not, and they're basically running a business for their equipment. And then they're also a freelancer. It's a whole business that they're running and other people just sit around and wait for the call. And so you see it both ways, but one way or the other people that have a sensibility that says, "This is a business I'm running, not a job I'm doing," they'll be the best freelancers.
Arlo Rosner:
And they'll be able to make a life of it and a career of it that at the end of the day, the time in between stops mattering as much, because... Let's pretend you're a director of photography and you own a $200,000 camera package and you're financing it like any other person would finance a capitalized asset, right? You're watching that money be made from your couch. So that time in between jobs matters a lot less, right? When the camera that you bought is out there making you $3,000 a day while you're sitting at home waiting for your next job. If you're really going to be a freelancer for 10, 15, 20, 25 years, there's got to be something else to it. Whether it's the way you build that freelance business or the things you build during your time off that make that time off feel like you're still working.
Andrew Dickson:
Aaron, we got to buy a camera.
Aaron James:
I started doing the math. I'm not good at math, but...
Arlo Rosner:
Although I'll tell you at the speed they release cameras these days, I wouldn't say it's the best move. I think what you guys should do though, you should start a podcast. I hear there's-
Andrew Dickson:
There's none of them. There is a boom right now. It's like a gold rush out there.
Aaron James:
We've been experiencing a lot of that gold rush from the podcast. In fact, we're just kind of rolling this out in terms of announcing it to people. And of course, the one thing I saw was a commercial that one of our members actually posted that said, "Don't start a podcast, whatever you do during the pandemic. That's the last thing you should do." So Andrew and I just ignored that. Arlo Rosner, freelance producer, entrepreneur, businessman dropping some real amazing stories and insight for us. So thank you so much for being here with us.
Arlo Rosner:
Thanks for having me guys. It was fun.
[Transition]
Aaron James:
All right. We have exciting part of the show where we get some questions from some of the great folks that listen to this podcast.
Andrew Dickson:
All right, Aaron, we've got a question that came to us via Facebook. This is a good one. Do you give repeat clients discounts according to frequency of work?
Aaron James:
That is a good question. I think the classic, "It depends," applies here, but typically I think it's a really good reason to kind of establish your rate on the higher end of things and then it actually allows you to be flexible and you can tell them, "Okay. Yeah." And it does happen because sometimes there's a client that is like kind of a big behemoth client, has plenty of money. The agency's kind of flush with budget and that type of thing is fine. And then they might work on something that's kind of cool and local and they don't have the same budget. So if you can be flexible I'd say yes, but you can also kind of caveat it and say, "Yes, I can work for that for this amount of time on this client. But once we move back into some of these other clients, I need to get back to my normal rate because I'm in demand."
Andrew Dickson:
The worst thing that can happen is you take a huge cut on your rate and commit to six months or something. And then the next week you can start getting offers for full rate work that that is maybe as if not more enjoyable.
Aaron James:
Yeah. So I think you always want to give yourself an out whether that's time or the project comes to an end, I'll be back up to my normal rate. But I think is it's very relational. So if you can keep the relationship good by maybe being a little flexible. I think that's a smart thing to do. If it's a relationship you want to keep,
Andrew Dickson:
Freelance is not all about the money. So if you actually want to only work four days a week, what a great counter offer. Of course, I'll give you a discount, but I take Wednesdays off.
Aaron James:
Right. Good answer, Andrew. I like that one.
Outro:
The Mt. Freelance podcast is handcrafted by the producers, mixers and sound designers of Digital One, Portland, Oregon. Executive producer, Eric Stolberg. Post producer, Kelsey woods. Assistant engineer, Tristen Schmuck, who also created the theme song and incidental music. To learn more about Erin, Andrew, and Mt. Freelance, visit mtfreelance.com. Thanks for listening and may your day rate be high and your vacations long.
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