RELEASE DATE: May 13, 2021
Mt. Freelance Podcast - Episode 105
Kathy Hepinstall
Freelance Writer & Novelist
Kathy Hepinstall is one of the most sought after freelance copywriters and creative directors in advertising and has also published 8 novels. In our fifth episode she speaks to her career paths, the importance of mentorship and community, and how freelancers have the opportunity to charge for our value instead of our time. Oh, and she also explains why she wants to key the car of whoever coined the term “writer’s block.” A must-listen for anyone who writes copy, books or emails.
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35 Min
Episode Recap
In our fifth episode Aaron James and Andrew Dickson welcome freelance copywriter and novel writer Kathy Hepinstall to the Mt. Freelance podcast.
In the advertising world, Kathy is a legend. She has been freelancing as a copywriter for the best agencies and clients around for decades, often coming on for a few days to write the manifesto that leads to years of great creative, or coming on as a creative director for a few months to help steer the work and mentor young and even not so young teams.
At the same time she’s written twenty novels. Eight of which you can find wherever you buy or borrow your books. We’re especially partial to The Book of Polly, a coming of age story about a young girl who worries her chain-smoking mom will die before she can uncover the secrets of her past. And we’re not the only ones, as she’s working on a feature film script based on the book for a major studio.
But what makes Kathy truly special is, if you’ll excuse the pun, she’s an open book. She’s an active mentor who uses her time and platform to share information and ideas to help other creative people and writer’s especially thrive. And she’s deadpan funny.
This episode is a must listen for anyone who writers ads, novels, screenplays or even emails. She share some great insights into how to be a successful writers, and how and why she would like to key the car of whoever created the term “writer’s block.”
If you’re wondering how Kathy has been able to accomplish so much, the answer is right there in the podcast. For Kathy being a freelancer means you can and should charge for your value instead of your time. Which means more time for you.
Kathy Hepinstall
Episode 105
Intro:
This podcast is brought to you by Digital One. Tell your story, connect with your audience and build your brand with an engaging podcast. Learn more at digone.com.
(theme music)
Andrew Dickson:
Aaron James:
Hello, Andrew.
Andrew Dickson:
How are you?
Aaron James:
I'm great.
Andrew Dickson:
Why are we doing this podcast again?
Aaron James:
I don't know. Let's just say Andrew and I have been freelancing for a couple of decades combined. We've had the pleasure of working with some really great people and learning a lot of great things and it's time to bring those to the inter webs.
(transition)
Andrew Dickson:
Aaron?
Aaron James:
Yes.
Andrew Dickson:
Was I your first pick to partner with you on Mt. Freelance?
Aaron James:
Well, ultimately, yes, but I may have talked to our next guest about this idea before you so...
Andrew Dickson:
And she said, no.
Aaron James:
She politely declined and said, you're crazy. And then I went knocking on your door.
Andrew Dickson:
Fortunately she said yes to coming on our podcast. She's a legend in the advertising world, just such a successful and fantastic freelance copywriter, but also has written books.
Aaron James:
Yeah, novels, historical novels.
Andrew Dickson:
Romantic novels.
Aaron James:
Young adult novels. And she's prolific and also has all sorts of Hollywood opportunities knocking on her door with the book she's writing for films and series.
Andrew Dickson:
I'm really excited to talk writer to writer with Kathy Hepinstall. Aaron, you're welcome to stick around and listen.
Andrew Dickson:
Kathy, welcome to the podcast.
Kathy Hepinstall:
I'm happy to be here.
Andrew Dickson:
How happy?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I'm ecstatic. I've had a couple of cups of coffee and I just met Dan Rather, so I'm ecstatic right now.
Aaron James:
That is amazing.
Andrew Dickson:
Did you give him a little wink or a nod or did you break the fourth wall?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I looked searchingly into his eyes and he looked into mine and he may have seen a spark of soul still left there, hard to say.
Andrew Dickson:
Why don't you tell us, when you're at a cocktail party and someone asks you know, what, what do you do? How do you contextualize your career?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Sometimes I just say, I'm in advertising. Like Dan Rather asked me, what are you here for? And I said, oh, it's for freelance advertising. And sometimes I feel, when I say I'm in advertising and I'm an author, then there's the little dance you have to do. Oh, are you published through a publishing house? Are you self published? And so sometimes I say, I'm in advertising and I'm a freelance writer. And sometimes I say, I'm kind of, I'm in advertising, I'm a freelance writer. And I also write novels on the side, but I'm almost never invited to cocktail parties because of my personality.
Andrew Dickson:
Well, and I think that's the reason that we're so excited to talk to you is not only are you one of the most sought after copywriters in advertising, but then you have, is it five published books?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I have eight published novels. I've written 19 or 20, and I've published eight. Six under my name Kathy Hepinstall. And then two young adult under my married name, Kathy Parks. So working on number nine right now.
Andrew Dickson:
Holy cow. Which came first advertising or writing novels?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I think they kind of came up in tandem. I always had aspirations to write novels so I was writing short stories. I started with poems when I was a little kid and I'm proud to say, I made my mother cry. That was a super hard audience as your own mother. And then as I got older, I wanted to write short stories. I began to write those and I'm not particularly great at short stories, that's its own format.
Kathy Hepinstall:
So then I went out to LA and started in advertising. And I had aspirations to write a novel, but it's easier said than done and I struggled a lot in the early years, learning how to write. So I was in advertising for only a couple of years before I went freelance because even back then, freelance is an opportunity to use energy and not time as your value, as your currency. That if you go into an institution, whether it's a corporation or an ad agency, and I've worked full time at both. If you go into an institution there's a certain block of time that you're expected to be there in which you're productive and not productive.
Kathy Hepinstall:
But when you freelance, you can collapse that productive time into a much smaller ball and then leave yourself open to doing something else that you love maybe a little more.
Aaron James:
As you're kind of going through advertising and you were full-time for a little bit and then you went freelance, were there things about full-time that you didn't like? I mean, you just talked about the energy and the time kind of equation, but like what else do you find the difference between freelance and full-time?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well full-time is someplace that I didn't hate being, I love the comradery there, especially in prior times. I love the energy of other people. And I love that. I felt that I lost track of myself when I was full-time. Like weeks and months would pass in kind of a blur and then I'd come out the other end and find myself without structure again and needing. Feeling like I needed to start another writing. So it wasn't a bad thing. It just felt that I never quite found a place that was in the right place at the right time for me. But I do know there's some people that have worked full time and they still write novels and they do very well. And even James Patterson used to write novels when he was at, I think J Walter Thompson and he's done pretty well without advertising for a while.
Andrew Dickson:
He's done okay.
Kathy Hepinstall:
He's all right.
Andrew Dickson:
(laughter) He breaks that top 100 best sellers every now and then. What drew you to advertising in the first place then? And especially, it's changing for the better, but traditionally a very male dominated space.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well, I was in, I was in a class in advertising, a creative advertising at UT. I just took the sequence there, which is just three classes in a row. And I think I was a Radio TV and Film major, which is a major, at the time, that I could get through knowing very little. So I picked that just out of a hat and still know very little, but I stayed an extra year and took the advertising sequence.
Kathy Hepinstall:
And there, I met some of the most funniest, amazing people I've ever met. And I thought, wow, I've really found my tribe. I feel like ad people are kind of cut from a different cloth. And for being in such a cynical business, there's some of the most idealistic people I've ever met. So I enjoyed the friendship of ad people. And I found that the writing that I did, I could turn to that medium advertising and make money that way and get recognition that way. And I didn't—I've got friends that went other ways, they were purely writers and they would just make just enough to get by on and everything was about the book. But I think there's many paths to writing a novel.
Andrew Dickson:
We obviously, myself especially, know what a copywriter does, but maybe for someone who's listening, who's not kind of... doesn't really know what that means or confuses it with copy editing. Can you talk a little bit about what you... You know, you're brought in and paid a lot of money by big agencies working with huge clients. What do you usually asked to do?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well, often I'm asked to help with the brand, like rebranding or brand voice. And the first thing usually is the manifesto. And I think Aaron calls me Kathy Festo. I'm very proud of that. And that way you write out what is the intention of the company and you make it sort of a North Star for what the work will be. I also do everything and as the mediums have exploded, there's nothing that I haven't done, whether it's social media writing. So television writing. Print, not so much these days. All kinds of writing.
Kathy Hepinstall:
And often when they say a writer and an art director, it's not, as you guys know, it's not just the writer does the writing and the art director does the visuals. They work together. And so sometimes I've worked with art directors, who've rewritten my copy and made it better. So those people will never be found.
Andrew Dickson:
They're dead. (laughter)
Kathy Hepinstall:
Killed them. They're dead. And likewise, I think after a while in the business, you can't help, but have somewhat of a visual eye. So it's a combination.
Andrew Dickson:
You are, again, one of the most sought after freelancers. And you know, whenever I'm thinking of other copywriters to recommend, your name comes up. Whenever I'm in a room with other freelancers and your name comes up, everyone's like, oh, Kathy. Do you feel like you've kind of still have a tribe, even though you are freelance within kind of the advertising world?
Kathy Hepinstall:
It's definitely more disperse now. Like it's not as... I used to live in LA. And it was just, in earlier days, more people went on site back then. There was more of a community back then. And now I feel like I still have a tribe as in you guys and others around the country. I don't–it's just harder to communicate because I don't do a lot of social media anymore. And you do feel a little isolated from pulling out of that particular medium, but in terms of having a tribe of like-minded people who have become my best friends. Yes, I still. I found most of my best friends in advertising.
Andrew Dickson:
Do you have that similar community with kind of within novel writing and literature?
Kathy Hepinstall:
No, I really don't. I just feel like, I'm not sure why, but it might just be the hours in a day. I just feel like I've had my head down, right. Working and writing on my own. And I've never have been in a particular community of writers, but maybe that comes now.
[Begin Advertisement]
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
I'm not sure, actually.
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
Oh my gosh. So it's like a magazine...
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
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Aaron James:
Okay.
Andrew Dickson:
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Aaron James:
[End Advertisement]
Aaron James:
One thing that we've always kind of talked about, as we trade some stories on kind of tips and tricks or tactics, I think a lot of freelancers right now are really trying to establish their value in the market. And obviously if you freelance right, you're going to make more money and you're going to have more control over your time. What are some things that maybe some freelancers that are just starting out can do to start establishing kind of more value?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I think that that's a really good question. First of all, is to just not fall into ... Every career has got its stereotypes. And the freelance stereotype is that lazy person that won't come on site and doesn't come through and all those things that you hear. And so what I try to do first is to, whatever job it is, to really bring an integrity to the job. And that means finding out little things. What's the font they like to work with? Are they Zoom people? Are they Google Docs people? What is their style? Because it's not about you. It's not about me. I never feel like I'm going to go and I'm going to make this work sound like me. I want it to sound like the best part of them. And I make that very clear and then little things like saying, thank you at the end of the job or saying, how did we do? Instead of how did I do?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I'm also very, very nice to the people on the front lines, because sometimes they're not treated well. The people that sign you up for paperwork, all freelancers hate paperwork, but those are the same people that will get your check for you when it's late. So I would say that kind of respect that you give distinguishes you.
Kathy Hepinstall:
And then if you are on social media, I would be the cleanest, purest version of yourself on social media. Some people might disagree with me, but if you imagine two circles that intersect, one is what you want to create. The advertising you want to create. And the other circle is the advertising that the agency can sell. Find out what the budget is. Don't have a rocket ship when the budget's $100,000 for a TV spot. Don't have something that's completely off the client's brand that you think is hilarious. And I think in prior times, people did this more. There was, there was more money, there was more time, more energy to experiment. And so now as a freelancer, I feel like I want, they're paying me a lot of money, to give them something they can sell to a client. And so within that, what is–and I'm not saying I don't stretch, but I'm always keeping in the back of my head, is this wasting their time and money? Can they sell this?
Aaron James:
I think that's really insightful to see like, Hey, this is really evolved and as a freelancer, I want to create value and I want to be a first call for these people. I need to have their best interests in mind, above my own.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Right and more and more, I get calls for things that I have very, very little time to do. And that's fine, I'll take that. I think last year I worked for 36 different entities, corporations, and agencies. And just aside from a couple of longer gigs, the average time was probably three to four days. And that's a big shift from ten or even five years ago. So they're looking for people who will come through. I feel to keep myself being that first call, I'm going to respect that and respect the fact that there's usually a fight within an agency or corporation for money before I'm even called. Blood's on the floor. And so the budget that they call and give to me is precious to them. And I don't want to waste their money.
Andrew Dickson:
You mentioned something about charging a lot of money. What is your sort of approach to negotiation or even any advice for fellow freelancers in that arena?
Kathy Hepinstall:
I think that you don't want outsmart yourself, honestly, especially these days. I tend to get the rate that I want, but I've been more flexible in recent years because say I come in at $20 a day.
Andrew Dickson:
Well, I'm going to hire you. $20 a day. (laughter)
Kathy Hepinstall:
Oh God. I'm really flexible these days. I just don't know what people are charging out there, so I'm just going to give you an example. So there are those companies that feel safe with the lower day rate no matter what. They would rather hire somebody for 30 days at $10 a day who won't solve the problem than me at $20 a day for three days, that will, because they see that $20 and they do a different math than what's in my head. So I try not to outsmart myself. If they say we only have this amount and it's a nice, long gig and it's a friendly people, and it's something that I can do. I won't cause too much of a fuss about it. I think that you can end up getting off people's lists because they'll just go oh, too expensive. And the other thing I'll do is I'll say, well, is what I'm charging is this amount per day. But if you want to do a project rate, it's usually much less. And so I offer that sometimes.
Andrew Dickson:
And what does that offer you? Just the chance to be more flexible in your time?
Kathy Hepinstall:
It offers me a chance to be more flexible. I really, really also concentrate a lot, especially project rate on deliverables. And I want, to me a deliverable like, okay.
Kathy Hepinstall:
For those that don't know, a deliverable is like, do you guys need a manifesto, three TV spots, a social media platform, and three examples. I try to get it down to exactly what they need, because if you do a project rate, especially. There I say, okay, that it's not based on time. A project rate is based on deliverables. And to me, everybody feels like they're getting something fair. They're getting that deliverable, those checked off, and I'm getting a finite amount of work to do for finite amount of money.
Andrew Dickson:
Yeah, I like the project fee as well because they don't really need to know how quickly I can think and write. So it might take two days to come up with the idea, but once you have it, you can write it in 10 minutes.
Kathy Hepinstall:
You're right. I mean, if I charge just from the specific time I put into some projects, I would go broke. But there was years and years and years of learning to be that fast.
Andrew Dickson:
One of the other things that I've noticed and admired about you is that when you're on-site, you really reach out to juniors and especially young female copywriters. And I see you actively engaging them and I see you taking them out to lunch and even, I know you're not a huge beast on social media, but when you do post on LinkedIn, it's always geared towards helping people and offering advice.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well, first of all, it's just based on a huge admiration I have for other creatives and kind of an awe at how some of them can just be so amazing and do so many amazing things. And I'm especially attracted to people who are just good, kind people and humble on top of their enormous talents. So part of it is wanting to keep up with the business and wanting to grow and change with the business and getting their ideas. But also, when I wrote novels, I basically locked myself in a house for three years and I covered the windows with sheets because I was probably technically insane.
Kathy Hepinstall:
And I taught myself how to write novels because nobody taught me. And I love, the reason I post on LinkedIn, especially lately, the reason I try to help people is that I really want to show shortcuts that nobody showed me. But if I can show somebody and then I can show them a ninja mind trick that will help them feel better about themselves when they write or write faster or write more efficiently. Well, then that gives me enormous pleasure. Plus, I think I'm good at mentoring. I think it's sort of a natural talent. I'm not good at a lot of things, but I know mentoring is one of them.
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Aaron James:
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Andrew Dickson:
I mean you talked about when you learned to write novels, sort of locking yourself in a house for three years. Now, it seems like the copywriting and the novel writing, almost inform each other, but they're so drastically different writing short form stuff, and then writing something that's going to end up being 300 pages. How do you balance and manage that?
Kathy Hepinstall:
It's all in little steps. You know, I really hate the word, writer's block. For example, I want to find the person who made up that phrase. And I would like to key his car, even though keys, it's hard to key cars with electric keys these days. I just wanted to add that. I get sad when people are given metaphors that defeat them a block is something made of concrete or wood that is impenetrable. So writer's block is nothing more than the hesitation of a fearful writer's brain. And the way through it, the cure for writer's block, which does not exist, is writing. It's not going to a psychologist and finding out why you feel this way. It's not reading books on writer's block. It's not any of that. The cure for writer's block is writing. So how do you do that though?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well, it's little wins. If you can imagine the beginning of any kind of novel or even campaign is a hill. The end is another hill. The writer's brain stands on top of that first hill and they see that chasm and that inspires fear. And the cure for that is orders, small orders, small wins and encouragement. So let's just take a novel. Two hills, beginning of the novel, end of the novel. First page, you need to start laying a bridge between those two hills so that your writer's brain feels more and more confident walking across that bridge. So what kind of things do that? Raw materials, a title, an outline, research. The more and more you do that, the more and more you build a surface upon which your muse or your subconscious is willing to venture out. Now I give myself little tasks. When I'm really seriously writing, I give myself, okay, write three pages a day, five pages or ten pages. Whatever it is, I write it out on a calendar.
Kathy Hepinstall:
I write out what the beginning is and what the end is. And when you write down something, your brain takes it more seriously. And I also write encouragement for myself. I think every writer, they write something good. They should write, damn, that's good writing. Write it under that because writers have a complex machinery to beat themselves up when they don't think they've done well, but there's no complex machinery for celebration. And that's how I've become so efficient over the years. That's why I can write a shitty novel in six weeks or whatever it was is because... They talk about the carrot and the stick. A brain is an animal. And it responds to a carrot and a stick like a horse does. If there's one thing I could say to all the writers out there, always the carrot, never, never the stick.
Say if it's an animal, say it's a dog or a horse. Let's just say, it's a horse. And this horse has worked all day to please you on this page or this paragraph and struggled. And then if you turn around and tell somebody or tell yourself, this is crap, there's much less chance of the horse trying again that hard for you the next time. So I am very encouraging to myself. It's not the same as narcissism. It's not the same as being arrogant. I treat myself with the love that I know I need to, for me to finish the work.
Andrew Dickson:
I have never heard of a writer writing, damn that's good writing underneath something they've written. That is so, I've never thought to do that. It's pretty incredible.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Well, when you think of it, like I never bothered to have kids, but suppose you have this baby. And when parents teach their children to walk, well, how come they don't threaten the kids? Like, how come they don't say, hey, dumb ass, put the fat foot down in front of the other fat foot idiot, or I'm going to hit you? The baby still learns to walk. It still learns to run. But it responds, he, she, I don't mean to say it. He, she responds to the love and encouragement. When you stretch your hands out to the baby and say, come to me, you can do it. You have hands to hold on this side and hey, you took two steps? That's great. They never say, oh, why not three steps, failure baby? (laughter) So when writers say, well, I'll never learn to write if I keep praising myself. No, you praise yourself for what you did well, and you learn that way as your own best friend. As your own muse.
Andrew Dickson:
It sounds like, do you love writing?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Not, not anymore. I used to love writing. I love communicating. I love when people write me back, like a couple people wrote me back on LinkedIn and said, thanks. One of them said, thanks for being a cheerleader for tortured souls everywhere. And like I said, I don't read my comments. There's always some jack ass lurking in the comment section that makes me feel bad. And as a writer, I know I have to protect my mind from that. So I don't read the comments. So if somebody writes me, something like that, that meant so much to me that somebody would feel better as a result of something I've written.
Andrew Dickson:
Well, and then you've got eight published novels and some pretty exciting news around The Book of Polly. Can you tell us about that and how that feels as kind of a new way to communicate your deeper stories with the world?
Kathy Hepinstall:
Yeah. There's a producer that's been very faithful to me throughout the years, and she's always been a big fan of my work and she has optioned several of my novels and has really struggled to bring them to light. And you know, what's happening these days. The channels are opening up. The need for content is now a giant fire hose. And somehow she knew the head of Amazon's new young adult film department and The Book of Polly isn't strictly a young adult book. It's told from the viewpoint of a 11 to 14 year old girl, but it was meant to be an adult literary novel. So my producer got me a partner, a screenwriting partner, and we've been doing drafts from Amazon. But it's exciting because it's the closest I've ever gotten to getting a green light before. And fingers crossed by next month, we'll know.
Aaron James:
Yeah. Well, I think what you got into means a lot to Andrew and I, because there's such an abundance out there. And I know we always kind of say that, but it's like, we don't need to keep every contact to ourself. We don't need to... If a job comes up that you can't take, you can share it. And so I think this idea of helping people is fabulous. And I know that in a lot of ways, helping people to get the courage to break through these little steps or writing a novel is actually even probably tougher than freelance. You know, I think it's a very rare skill, but I also think it's like, you're saying, there are steps you can take to really get going on it.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Yeah, we're being taught by our culture and our media, our news, our government to operate from scarcity. We're not a bunch of rats aboard a ship, struggling over the last bits of crumbs. There's abundance out there. There's abundance of freelance jobs. You walk into a bookstore and you see thousands of novels that were all published. There's an abundance. And that should allow for generosity that should allow for sharing. And I feel like everything now is based on fear, how much fear you can inspire is what gets you clicks or gets you eyeballs. Well, it's just not true. It's not the way the world really is. And it's a shame it's making good people be afraid. It's making good people feel like they have to hoard the jobs or not pass around names. And I think in any medium, we can have generosity and fuzzy feelings. So I'm appreciate so much what you guys are doing. And you guys are the two guys to do it.
Andrew Dickson:
Well, thank you. Yeah, sometimes when I'm around, I'm on a freelance job and people are stressing out, I kind of go to this like... And sometimes they'll share it with the person who's also kind of looking to me to build that bridge. I'm kind of like it's just advertising, but that's maybe even the wrong way to frame it. It's like, guys, look at what we get to do. We are in a heated building with amazing food being delivered to us, getting to spend a lot of client's money to help them, hopefully do something cool or communicate something interesting. And there's definitely a privilege to it that I think sometimes, I don't want to forget because we get to do something really fun.
Kathy Hepinstall:
That is so true and gratitude is so important. And one thing I would say is if you're freelancing in a building, go find the cleaning person and find out what their name is because they're the only one that if they don't show up for a week, that people will notice.
Aaron James:
That is true. What's interesting about this group of freelancers with Mt. Freelance is it's not all advertising. It's actually kind of interesting cross section of people across music and design and UX and management, and even some recruiting talent, but we're really starting to see a generosity in the group and helping each other. And I love being competitive with myself to make the best work that I can make, but I really am kind of tired of trying to feel this need to be competitive with other people. And yeah, the rats on the ship. That's a great way to put it because we're not we're rats on an island.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Bounteous island where friendly, glorious rats.
Aaron James:
Coconuts everywhere.
Kathy Hepinstall:
No, yeah. Fear really makes you contract and peacefulness and generosity makes you expand. And I just want to make sure that this media landscape and this world and this technological landscape that we have to navigate, doesn't make me contract and doesn't make me fearful because then you can't really be of help to anybody else.
Andrew Dickson:
Kathy, it has been such a pleasure talking to you and having you on the podcast.
Kathy Hepinstall:
Thank you guys.
(transition)
Andrew Dickson:
Okay, all right. It's time for the Q and A time with Mt. Freelance.
Mt. Freelance Listener:
Hey, when it comes to productivity, do you get up super early or do you stay up super late? I'm just curious to hear a perspective on that.
Andrew Dickson:
I have kids, so I wake them up and yeah, no. I'm kind of, I definitely kind of keep banker's hours. And that's actually, what I like about freelance. (laughter) When I was working at Weiden+Kennedy there was always the call at like 8:00 PM to my wife being like, I don't know when I'm coming home and as a freelancer, I mean, I'm like, hey, what do you want for dinner? I'm cooking. So, I really try to keep that, almost like kind of a nine to five schedule. And then sometimes, I put in a little work in the evening, especially if I get inspired sometimes. After a little dinner and a beer, suddenly the ideas start coming, but yeah. And then I also really try not to work weekends.
Aaron James:
Well, I think for me, personally, I think I've paid a lot more attention to when I get my best work done. And so I think it's kind of personal. I would definitely take that into account. And then I kind of protect that time from client calls, phone calls, stuff like that. I try to push all that stuff to the afternoon and I get most of my kind of like deeper thinking kind of work done in the morning. The other thing is that sometimes like we're on the west coast, sometimes you get a client on the east coast and all of a sudden, your mornings start with a 6:00 AM phone call.
Andrew Dickson:
I have turned down an east coast job for that reason.
Aaron James:
Yeah so, I mean, Andrew's not a real morning person so that makes a lot of sense.
Andrew Dickson:
I like how I answered that question, just like it was asked to me personally, and you actually tried to reflect back on how this might help our listeners.
Aaron James:
But we don't know who this question came from. It's an unknown person. So I wanted to give a very specific answer.
Andrew Dickson:
Love it.
Andrew Dickson:
The Mt. Freelance podcast is handcrafted by producers, mixers, and sound designers of Digital One Portland, Oregon. Executive producer, Eric Stolberg, post producer, Kelsey Woods, assistant engineer, Tristan Schmunk, who also created the theme song and instrumental music. To learn more about Aaron, Andrew, and Mt. Freelance, visit mtfreelance.com. Thanks for listening, and may your day rate be high and your vacations long.
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